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Psychotherapist specializing in tangible resilience strategies

Speaker 01 00:01

What does it take to create something that never existed before? What does it take to challenge the status quo? What does it take to change the world? This is the swell podcast. We're passionate about story experience in designing culture, but ultimately how an idea swells into a movement. Take a journey with us as we seek the answers to those three questions through the stories of thought leaders, world builders, Game Changers disruptors, and other pleasantly rebellious humans who've ventured out into the unknown on a personal journey to do something novel, innovative, creative, or disruptive.

In today's episode, we chat with EmCapito, a psychotherapist specializing in tangible resilience strategies highlighted in a recent TEDx talk, Em partners behind the scenes with visionaries, entrepreneurs and business leaders to foster purpose driven impact and holds a master's degree in Social Work and Business Administration. She is a licensed clinical social worker, a yoga teacher, and a meditation teacher with a private practice in Salt Lake City, in Park City, Utah. We dive a bit deeper into Em story and our strategies to build resilience. Be sure to like and subscribe to the podcast, sign up to our newsletter and get in on the conversation through all of the major socials @theswellpod. Our first season is made in partnership with Kiln, Kiln provides flex office space solutions for teams and individuals. They're all inclusive set of amenities helps startups, creatives and entrepreneurs alike get work done. Learn more about Kiln Thanks for tuning in. We hope you enjoy. So how are you?

Speaker 02 01:44

I am wonderful, and I feel really fortunate to feel wonderful. I think this is a scary time a lot of people are really anxious or sick or dealing with loss, and so far, I've just been really fortunate this year. So I feel really grateful too today.

Speaker 01 02:00

Yeah, that's amazing. I mean, it's interesting thinking about somebody who talks about resilience in a year, like this year. I mean, do you have people coming to you a lot with the COVID stress, and a lot of issues that stem from that.

Speaker 02 02:16

Absolutely. I talked with other fellow therapists as well, and we've experienced that lol, like right after March where people kind of pulled back and didn't want to continue couples’ therapy or other work because it's expensive, or they're just kind of hunkering down. But then about 30 days later, we had just this huge increase in referrals and people looking for support, and that's held pretty steady. We have a lot of increases in domestic violence, which is an area I specialize in a lot of increases in just couples conflicts, divorce, unfortunate, like increases in child abuse and different trauma that way, being isolated and sequestered and anxious is not a great recipe for mental health, and so certainly seeing a lot of that coming through the door, unfortunately.

Speaker 01 03:07

Yeah, it's really tough, and I mean, there's no way out of being isolated, either. It's kind of just the way that it is, and it's really tough, and I don't know, but since thinking about resiliency, I don't know, I'll say this seeing your TEDx talk out of every one that I experienced last year, in 2019, it was the one that resonated most with me, I think on a couple of different levels. I think, I'm very passionate about story. We're both very passionate about story, and I think, the theme of what you talk about this idea of growth through deliberate conflict innocence, if I put it in a story term, and what comes out of that is transformation. I relate very deeply to that. But also like, I can pick out personal moments where I'm like -- you just put words to what I experienced, and that was really incredible. So I don't know. Do you want to talk about what it is that you're really passionate about? When it comes to resilience, and then maybe even talk towards, what made you so interested in resilience and your journey there?

Speaker 02 04:16

Absolutely. I think both of our talks really did align for me as well. Because a lot of my resilience research went right back to Joseph Campbell with the hero's journey, and that's all about owning the story of your life. The story of your day, the story of your flat tire, the story of your crazy divorce, in my case, and here in the pandemic, right? How do you own your story in the midst of so many things that are out of your control and unknown, and that's life? This is the human experience of figuring out what you can choose into in the moment rather than just reacting to what's happening to you. shifting from that victim mindset to a heroic mindset, which is so empowering and kind of the key to it all, in my opinion, which is why I became so passionate about resilience.

So my story tracks back I started as a very young therapist, I was like 21, when I graduated, certainly, like, did not have the life experience necessary to be very effective, and I didn't align very well. So a lot of the Western approaches to doing therapy, and so I struggled a lot and really emphasized more on the business side of things really got into more of the macro level impact with organizations, and I played there, it was something that was up my alley as a type A personality operation systems thinker, and I still use that a lot. But therapy felt clunky, I felt very deficit oriented, and my clients didn't seem to get better. I worked in addiction treatment, too. So it's hard to watch the failure rate there, because it's devastating when you relapse, and so I didn't find my footing there until I went through my own trauma, and so that was five years ago.

Now, there's like the big five-year anniversary, which it feels like it was yesterday and 100 years ago. But I went through just this really traumatic divorce and all of the experiences surrounding that I think divorce is such a commonplace thing in our society that people don't really, we underestimate the impact right on ourselves personally, and just even being away from your kids half of the time is a huge thing to adjust to, and we kind of just go through the motions, but there's a lot of layers to it, and in the process of my divorce, I ended up getting wrongfully arrested, spending a night in jail, and going through just the shock of all of my preconceived notions of what life is supposed to be like, and realizing that it's not like that sometimes, we get these curveballs that come out of nowhere, and seem to be from some other planet like this can't be my life, this can't be happening, and it's a shared experience, whether it's a wrongful arrest, or a premature death, or anything that we're dealing with our lives, these tragedies come for all of us, and being able to find some sense of peace, and that became absolutely like my entire focus, it was survival every single day, it was like waking up and like how do I do this better, because I was the worst client going through trauma.

Despite all the practice and therapy and knowing all of the acronyms and terms and methods and worksheets, I was the person that fell flat on my face and was debilitated and paralyzed and went through like an autoimmune reaction even, and so develop type one diabetes, and just like six months of absolute hell, and so that's where resilience really became something that wasn't even a choice. It was necessary just to get through the day, it was figuring out how do I flip this script to come through this?

Speaker 01 08:07

So there was that moment, I guess, right though, that you got to where it's like you deliberately made the choice of resilience, it was like, I don't know what else to d or what was it that?

Speaker 02 08:20


Speaker 01 08:21

Tell me about that moment because I can imagine a lot of people go through a very difficult time and they listen to your talk, probably, and they're like, Yes, I love that. But in the moment, when you're talking about, you're suffering the symptoms of all of this stress and anxiety, and I just helped me understand the moment that you got past that, and maybe in a really mindful way, and it's interesting, because you're also a yoga practitioner, I don't know, and maybe how did that all manifest itself into actually making the decision to do what you did and become, really go on your resilient field trip of your own?

Speaker 03 08:56

I'm interested in this answer, as well as maybe through that six months, you probably are aware that you were in the position you were in. You may be stuck in the trap the trauma triangle, but you can't get out. I don't know whether you observed it. You just knew you were there, but you just couldn't do anything about it, and then it leads to this moment where maybe you did make a decision. I don't know if you can shed some light on that as well in your answer.

Speaker 02 09:19

Definitely. So it was like floating up out of my body and watching this happen. Because I am a therapist, and so I was super curious as I was watching this train wreck woman go through like I didn't, I had no appetite, which is really common after trauma. You just lose your appetite. You lose weight, I lost my hair, like everything was just going wrong, I couldn't sleep, and there was just this apathy, numbness that prevented a whole lot of thoughtful action, and I think this is a just really common in crisis, and so recognizing that we need to be compassionate with our Those pullbacks recognize our bandwidth is really small during those initial, that initial phase of just getting through it, and so I was really just like, Okay, I need to do this today like the little to do list every day I've call the attorney, I've got to follow up on the legal thing, I've got to take care of my kids, I've got to shower, and so the survival phase was fascinating to watch, because I hadn't personally experienced that as an adult, and especially as a therapist and watch myself go through the trauma phase, and then there was this period where you hit a point of relief, I would say, where something gives, and whether it's an absolute meltdown moment where your body's like, okay, you're ready to feel all of this and it feels like rock bottom, because everything comes pouring out of you. Or it's just this breath, you get this breath of fresh air, and for me, it was concrete because it was a divorce, and I got to this point where the paperwork came in, actually, the day before Thanksgiving, so I'm coming up on that anniversary right now, and in this modern day and age, this is an email.

So this email comes from the courts and is like, Oh, your divorce was finalized. Here's the sign paperwork, and my kids aren't home, and I was like, Okay, this is like the coolest timing the day before Thanksgiving, I'm so grateful that this whole this piece, right is done, and then it was just intuition. It honestly wasn't, there's no credit to like any of my training or experience, there was just this intuitive, totally out of character call to go on a trip, and so I vividly remember I got the divorce paperwork, I was sitting in bed on my laptop, and I looked at the signature on the bottom, and that was like really meaningful for me, and then I opened another tab, and I googled warm beach, December.

There was no intelligence around it, and if anyone that knows me, I go on a lot of trips now, because I fell in love with travel as a resilient strategy. But I spreadsheet everything, whether it's like figuring out the best housekeeping service, like I have a spreadsheet of like seven columns to figure out anything, I am a very deliberate planner, and I'm very frugal and like, thoughtful about how to spend money, and so with travel, especially like my way of doing even just like a Bear Lake trip here in Utah, which is like, super local and low key would be to plan and like compare all these options for weeks before deciding. But that night, after the Google results came up, Puerto Rico popped up as an option on like a list, and I had never thought about Puerto Rico in my entire life. there had never been a conscious like, Oh, I want to go to Puerto Rico, and it felt like okay, I don't need a passport. It's still in America. Like, it's not a huge, scary thing. But it's a little scary, right? I've never gone on a solo trip at this point. But there's just this intuitive, like, not even a thought behind it, just this knowledge that I needed to go, and so I clicked on Puerto Rico, I typed into Google flights, the dates that I was available when my kids would be gone for Christmas break at their dad's house, found a flight did not even look at the price just booked it. This happened in the span of like maybe five minutes.

So I honestly; my biggest take away from that and what I've witnessed in working with clients is that we often don't trust that intuitive call. But when we do magical things really happen, our body has so much wisdom, and when we're in crisis when we're in tragedy or in a funk, like so many people at this point in the whole COVID thing. I mean, we all had projects at first. That initial like, Oh, it's okay, I can remodel the garage. But then you get into this chronic state and a lot of us are in that funky place. Regardless of whether it's crisis or the funk, really tuning into the body, which I found through, we can do that a lot through yoga, meditation, these different body practices that I came to afterward. But trusting whatever is there, whether it's like, I want to learn the guitar or I want to go on a crazy trip or I want to reach out to this old childhood friend, and there's often something that feels kind of out of the norm to just follow that first initial seed to plant and then things grow from there momentum takes you forward.

Speaker 03 14:33

I love that. [crosstalk] I pictured though is that you were basically trapped. In your mind in your any other instances, but as soon as that signature was there or the email came through, it was like a door opening.

Speaker 02 14:48

Yes, I absolutely like

Speaker 03 14:50

[crosstalk] use the word something like a choosing possibility, I think you use that word previously and certainly the door opens to anything?

Speaker 02 15:01


Speaker 03 15:02

I find it's pretty fascinating that you chose something that was out of character too, though.

Speaker 01 15:08

So you mentioned, like this idea of like, we all have these project, and I am actually -- So there's a lot of things that I want to know. But I'm trying to focus it down to the idea of, I guess the purpose of the project or the meaning of the project, I guess, right? Because you're talking about, I can go clean the garage or I can be resilient on purpose, right, I guess, and I guess I'm really interested in this idea of like, how important is --- I guess we're going to get into the idea of being resilient on purpose in a second. But how important is the idea of having something purposeful, that is pulling you through that resilient thing. Like, you're hopefully aiming for something on your trip. You don't maybe know what it is at that point in time. But I don't know. Can you talk to the idea of purpose as it relates to the moment of -- and maybe the instinct to be resilient?

Speaker 02 15:59

Yeah. Well, I think to speak to like the door opening, to first is the beautiful thing about adversity, which, of course, like we see in the hero's journey, it's always coming for us is that it gives you a chance to explore something new. It jogs you out of your current momentum, you're headed in one direction, and suddenly you have to shift gears, you have to pause, you get this beautiful space that feels terrifying, at first, to reconsider everything.

So yes, when you do follow a bit of a crazy intuitive call, you open up yourself to all the possibilities, even if they're unrelated. Yeah, and that's sort of the coolest part about resiliency field trips, when I started looking at this for myself and within client work was -- it didn't matter what it was, when you face something uncomfortable, like that's the purpose, I think, as being out of your comfort zone, you just naturally increase your resilience in every other area of your life. So suddenly, people will go on these resiliency field trips with intention, and it'll be like, Oh, I'm going to go on a road trip by myself just down to Moab or something, or to the Oregon coast, or I'm going to go out to dinner alone and sit at the table and feel uncomfortable around everyone else that might be judging me for being there alone, whatever it is, because our comfort zones are all unique to us.

Suddenly, you come home, and you're like, wow, I don't have to be in this stagnant relationship, like we could actually work on it. Or I could leave, and that's happened before or I could go back to college. It's totally within the realm of possibility. I could switch careers, I could pursue that passion that I gave up back in high school, I could get back on the clarinet, it doesn't matter what is right. But they're all these possibilities that feed our souls, because I think the human experience is all about being in possibility, and exploring whatever it is that calls to you rather than that secure. I'm going to do X, Y, and Z steps so that I have enough money, so that I have enough love, so that I have enough of things this scarcity mindset that drives us on the hedonic treadmill to do, do, do and buy, buy, buy, in order to feel like we're enough, when we've been enough all along, and being in that place of discomfort and fear, regardless of where it's at. reminds us of that.

Speaker 01 18:21

Yeah. So a lot of businesses right now. All over talk about the idea of growth mindset, and I think you were-- that is to a T exactly. I hope that's what people would take away from this is like, if you're really trying to understand what it means to have a growth mindset, go talk to me, and I'm interested because in that -- So that moment where it was instinctual have you always looked at moments of opportunity or moments of adversity and challenges something as like more of a positive thing. Is something that has always been with you instinctually or...

Speaker 02 19:02

Oh, heck no. I was like most people, life happened to me, and I was the victim of it, and I didn't have control and was frustrating. You're always waiting for those blue sky days where it's like, oh, the sun is out. It's a good day. I woke up on the right side of the bed traffic was light, the coffee was perfect. This is a good day, and the awful part about that is that you are trapped by life circumstances. I'm doing these resiliency field trips and getting into a growth mindset practicing that liberates happiness from happy conditions. You get to be happy in any conditions, and that was definitely not in my wheelhouse. Before all of this. I was the reactive person that would cuss and get short tempered and blame other people and then ruminate about it. You know, go on a trip and be upset about the weather. Is that I was definitely the tumbleweed, and I think most of us grow up that way, and we see it in our parents. I've role modeled it for my kids’ multiple times, even just recently, like we all fall into that victim mindset. It's not about I think it's just human --- It's not about being ashamed when you're there. It's about figuring out that you're there as fast as possible, and then taking back your story, choosing into the adversity so that you're in control of your own experience.

Speaker 01 20:27

Yeah. So what did you do on your field trip, right? In December, in Puerto Rico, like, yeah, and what was that experience, like?

Speaker 02 20:37

It was a real urgent call to action, I think when I look back, because I leaned in as hard as I could, but this is also kind of my way of doing everything. I am a very type a man, focus, dive right in type of personality when it comes to anything, and so I definitely did a m style.

So not only was I going on this trip alone, for the first time ever, and I didn't stay in any of the tourist areas, and so everyone spoke Spanish pretty much exclusively and I had only had like some very, half effort, Spanish classes from junior high, it's a lien on, and so there was the language barrier, which was actually turned out to be quite an adventure and really fun, and then in looking at, what am I going to do in Puerto Rico over the next couple days after I booked this trip, I'm just glancing through again, google lists and being like, okay, that seems really wildly uncomfortable, and again, there wasn't really this conscious connection to any why behind it just this intuitive like, lean into this. I had never thought about scuba diving in my entire life. It was not something I wanted to do. If someone had pitched it to me before all this, I would be like, no, look, I think I'm good. I'm on top of the water. But there was a really wonderful scuba diving spots down there, and so it's like, well, if fate says like, I can get certified in time, because again, this trip was only like four weeks away when I booked it.

So I pulled up a scuba dive center out in bountiful, and they were like, yeah, we can get you certified literally 24 hours before your flight, which is the minimum like time before you should fly after diving, and I was like, Okay, I guess this is happening, and so I signed up for the classes and started doing the scuba training, and got certified just before my flight did a scuba dive tour while I was down there, which was also wildly uncomfortable because a lot of places in Puerto Rico or in other like less formalized, regulated countries. You go on these scuba trips, and they're not very diligent about all of the safety protocols, and so I'm like this brand new scuba diver who knows nothing, and they're like, Alright, put on your tanks jump in the water, and so it was nerve racking, and they let us dive way further than where we were supposed to be diving. Like there was all these kind of pieces that created anxiety for me having just been taught like what my limits were, and knowing I could die. But it was amazing.

So I got to dive with sea turtles and just see the most amazing things and experience. Something that I think everyone should experience at least once was just like, the very act of breathing underwater is surreal and really, really neat. I definitely picked off the back of the boat many times. I get seasick apparently. So it was a wild experience. I stayed in my first Airbnb, which for people nowadays even for me, like seems ubiquitous, like not a big deal, but I did not know what I was doing. So I booked an Airbnb that didn't have locking doors had like roosters reminiscing about had no hot water. Multiple bedrooms with lots of hippies like backpackers staying their people getting high all night like and I'm like this really sheltered you [laughter 24:10]]

Just sitting there like oh my god, this is a bit different, and so it was it was a wild experience at every point and then I signed up for I'd never gone kayaking before ever, not even just in like a calm lake. But I signed up for like open ocean kayaking at night through like a really small little outfit, which was just one guy offering like this cash based kayaking, and in Puerto Rico they have these two beautiful dinoflagellates pond areas like in the ocean in these bays where they the dinoflagellates glow at night, and so if you go on a new moon nights, it's just the water glows and you can dive into the water and there's all these like, just incredible thrill like can believe this exists on planet earth experience.

So I sign up for this and there's no life jackets, the kayaks look like they're 10 years old, and there's just two of us on the tour, and the guy running the tour is in a boat, way ahead of us, it's pitch black, and the waves are like three feet tall, just crushing over the kayak, as we cross over to this bay, and it was just in my mind, like, just keep going, just keep going, and we got there, and it was magical and amazing, and I'm so glad I did all of that, and I certainly don't want to encourage anyone to go so far outside their comfort zone that you have a negative experience, or put your life in danger, and I see no point that I feel like I was truly in danger, or I would have opted out, and that's the beauty is you can opt out at any point. But it was certainly like way outside my comfort zone to go on this trip, and to do it that way and rent a car for the first time and drive across the island, and my mom was in the back of my head the whole time, like you're going to get kidnapped.

You know, something tragic is about to happen, and it didn't, and the people were really wonderful, and I have to say on all of my travels, I've never really felt at risk, I felt more at risk in Chicago than I have in most third world countries that I've gone to people, on the most part are really good people, and if you have a good sense about you -- Yeah, you might have some bad experiences here and there. But I think it's worth it. I think the ROI is there, even if you get robbed at some point. So pickpocketed or whatever, which is the greater risk that I think about in most of these cases or flights go get canceled, or you lose some money here and there. All of that turns into the journey. It's part of the adventure.

Speaker 03 26:50

Yeah, I love that the makes me think of there's a tension, there must be a tension between choosing something or not even choosing something maybe intuitively, you just booked something that you wouldn't normally do. There's some fear there, but then also attention with some level of excitement. Is that is that grown over time or did it excite you in that moment when you were fear -- But actually, I'm choosing something, and how important is that the choice in making you feel excited, and then motivating you to go and actually make you do it?

Speaker 02 27:23

I love that follow up question because a lot of people do come to me and say, I am way, definitely never going on a solo trip. It's just so far outside the comfort zone, and so I think when I talk about resiliency field trips that very first -- one of the first components is that it should be fun. There should be this level of excitement, and enough confidence that you're not going to melt down. You're like, Okay, this scares the crap out of me. But I'm pretty confident I'm going to live. I've got this sense of like, okay, I can opt out at this point, I can opt out at this point, I'm definitely going to live through this, and it can mean, maybe if I bring a friend along, then it takes that excitement level up and that confidence level up to the point where I can hold that tension between, this is a really cool adventure, and I'm also a little freaked out, but I can stay in it.

Our goal really is to stay Let the fear wash over you and to be friendly, right to like, feel that sensation, because it's really just an evolutionary physical, like physiological sensation. That's going to pass. The adrenaline hits, the cortisol hits, you get the shaky hands, your heart races, sweaty hands, I know, standing on the side of the TEDx stage, all of that washed over me and the most extreme way, and you get to sit there and realize this is temporary, this isn't who I am. This is just fear, and as long as I'm not going to die, I can choose into this push past it and, and experience fear in a positive way, and I don't ever want to push so far past that I experienced fear in a really negative way, because I'm going to pull back even more, and so with every one of my resiliency field trips, I am always gauging that tension. Where's that point? I'm planning a trip to Panama right now, and there's a volcano there, the highest point in the country, and I'm like, Oh, that sounds a little freaky, and there's so little tourism going on right now that if I did go, I'd be with the tour guide by myself, and going on this overnight journey you leave at like 11pm at night, you don't get back until 11:30 in the morning, and it's 17 miles, it's 4000 feet elevation gain, I think, really cold at the top, all of these uncomfortable experiences. I'm wondering. Is this pushing too far? Am I going to really actually have that excitement, enjoyment, the positive association, or do I want to scale back. What is my readiness and interest in this right now? And I think it's important to be aware of that.

Speaker 01 29:57

So as you're advocating for these resiliency, inoculations stress inoculations, resiliency field trips. There is that important part of you that is the mom in the back of your head. That's saying, wait a minute, am I going too far, and so I guess, how do you find that balance or what do you tell the people who are maybe going on these things with you or taking advice to do this thing? And I guess how do you strike that balance? Is it just constantly being aware and asking yourself like, Am I going too far or I don't know how do you?

Speaker 02 30:30

I am a big fan of experiential learning. For me, and from what I've seen with client work, like, that's really how we grow, right? It's not by reading a book, and if it was, like we'd all be healthy, wealthy and sexy. Because there's a million books out there. It's really about taking it and applying something. So whatever resonates with you, whether it's a resiliency field trip or a time management strategy, it's about putting it into application and seeing how it fits inside your body.

So I take baby steps. What is one easy thing you can do this weekend or today that feels uncomfortable? It could be like saying hi to a stranger. It takes me five minutes to find a stranger Say hello, and experience the anxiety of like, Oh, they might not say hello back, or they might have headphones in or they might be irritated or I might feel stupid. All these silly like protective helicopter mom things that get louder, louder, the less we do scary things That resilience zone atrophies down when we don't practice, and so when we do practice, when you lean into just those baby steps, you start to get attuned to this fear, and this is intuition. This is the wise mom saying pull back, and this is just fear.

Okay, I can let go of the fear. But when the wise mom is like, Okay, I get that you want to do this, but there are some legitimate risks, and you may want to start smaller or jettison that idea altogether. You can start to sort those through, but it takes practice to know what's different in your body and giving yourself space for the initial fear hormones to subside. Because while your body is in that shaky, crazy state, you're like, narrow, pinpoint view on all the possibilities, and so the time to let that subside to be with yourself, you can come back to authenticity.

Speaker 01 32:26

Yeah. Okay, so if I was going to ask, I guess, because what's really interesting is the intuition and the fear kind of bouncing between the two, is when you start to look at like, Okay, well -- because you're pushing a little bit further than not only you're comfortable with, but then you've ever experienced before, which means that there is this inherent ability, or there's this possibility of failure, and so, through these resiliency field trips, through your own experience, are you aware that you might fail? Have you failed in these opportunities, where you're trying to build up your resiliency, or trying to go do something completely out of your wheelhouse? I don't know...

Speaker 02 33:06

I love that you brought up failure, because I think that's the coolest part about this, is that we need to redefine our relationship to failure. growth comes through failure, it's trying something not quite succeeding or falling flat on your face, and then trying again. But if we're not comfortable with failure -- I always think when my overprotected fear brain gets going, it's like, oh, you might fail, and you might die. The fear of brain is all about survival, and so at the end of every, like, why you shouldn't do this statement is this little tag on of like, and you might die. It's like, don't get on the stage, you might die, don't reach out to that friend, they don't really like you, and you might die, and so becomes this very black and white, narrow experience with failure of like, oh, I really don't want to risk that. But to not risk failure is to not grow, it's to be stuck. It's to feel miserable a lot of the time because we are designed to go out and be on that edge of our comfort zone to be constantly growing and pushing into new things.

That's when we feel alive, and so me going to Puerto Rico, I thought it was just a crazy trip. Like, oh, this is just a little Eat, Pray Love journey. But in the process of experiencing that, and then coming back and seeing the ripple effect into every other area of my life. I suddenly realized why Eat Pray Love is such a -- why we all related to that, why we have this natural, intuitive Renaissance period after trauma or adversity, this desire to do these new things. Because our body knows, that's where we feel alive, that's where we feel at peace, where we find joy, where we find connection, and those are all necessary ingredients to just being a human. That's having a life, and so I think failure is inherent when you do these things, and it's awesome. I Look for the failure, and in the moment I'm still not great about it. I fail all the time. I am like an absent minded professor, and so whenever I go on these experiences, and people look at the Instagram photo, or whatever, and they think, oh, wow, you just did that so well. But behind the scenes is like all sorts of gnarly experiences. You know, when I went to Italy with a friend on a big resiliency field trip I got in a car accident, and it was the coolest part of the entire experience was like failing at a roundabout and having to navigate that, and I've failed on so many hikes. I just hiked timpanogos for the first time, which is so silly. I've grown up in Utah should have done it long ago. It's probably my favorite hike in Utah now.

But it was about a month ago, and I get so in my head. There's this one piece about a mile and a half into the hike where you need to start up the switchbacks and there's a hairpin turn, and if you keep going straight, you go to this little waterfall, which is a dead end, and there's all these logs across the trail that are like don't go this way, and I didn't even see him, I just stepped right over them, kept on going, momentum carrying me forward, and then was like utterly lost for half an hour at the waterfalls trying to find the trail, and so had to backtrack, I definitely like started crying. I'm on this solo Trek, and it's like not even daylight yet, because I started really early, and I'm like, I'm already failing. It's timpanogos. Like people like this, like so many people go on the site, and I can't even do it right, and so backtracking finding the logs, the sign that says to turn, I had to just sit down and laugh at myself right to find the humor in the fact that of course, I'm going to fail, of course, there's going to be more and more of that, and it's, that's where I get to find the lessons and take them back with me to see how I'm carrying forward across the logs in my path in my personal life, which I do all the time to write just like, Oh, I stayed on that project for way too long. When I knew it was the wrong path, or I stayed in that relationship for way too long. I ignored all the red flags, and that's the journey; is doing these resiliency field trips maps over because of the failures.

Speaker 03 37:14

Do you think that it's it seems like at the heart of that is -- What's the criteria of success? It's just being curious; you're not doing these just for the sake of it although that would be still good. There's an instinct there to be curious, what if I go and do this --- You must be curious enough to find out what the result would be to eat in a restaurant by yourself or whatever it might be, you're curious, and I think that that can't really fail. Because you find out maybe the end of it wasn't very useful. Or it wasn't what you expected. But it's still success,

Speaker 02 37:51

Exactly. Where such an outcome oriented society, it's all about -- well, like I'm writing a book right now, and it took me years to get to the point where I like started actually writing in earnest because it was all about the outcome, like Will this be published? Will someone want to read it? How do I write this for somebody, rather than writing it for myself, just out of curiosity? What's going to come out of me, I don't know, let's just start writing and see what happens or start up the trail and be okay with the fact that I might have to turn back, which for me as a Type A is so hard, I'm so outcome driven, I have to get to the peak, I have to do the thing that I planned, which is why travel is my favorite for resiliency field trips, because it doesn't matter where you go, whether it's a road trip a few hours away, or Asia on a like a huge long distance flight, something's going to go wrong.

Probably a lot of things, you're going to break down on the side of the road or you're going to miss a flight, which I've done way too many times, or one flight gets delayed, and you miss the next and you're stuck in Hong Kong or things go wrong, and that's the coolest part is learning to just be curious in the moment and let it flow. Because if you think about it, all of the quote unquote bad times in your life are really just your reaction to supposedly things going wrong. But when we look back, we're often most grateful for those moments, and so in in the moment, we can decide to be open to whatever is unfolding and whatever lesson or journey or new experience is happening for us instead of to us right it's shifting from that to me to for me mindset. It changes everything. Suddenly you can be happy no matter what you can grow no matter what, or because of all of it. Changes life.

Speaker 01 39:45

I'm sorry [crosstalk] have you seen Mean Girls.

Speaker 02 39:48

Oh, yes.

Speaker 01 39:50

After --- and you will die thing I just -- don't have sex or you'll get [inaudible 39:55] you will die.

Speaker 01 39:58

So I'm interested to know after you got back then --- So you got back from Puerto Rico-- I guess how did you make the connection to like, this was super valuable to me. I mean, and how can I take that and apply it to other people?

Speaker 02 40:15

Yeah, you know, for me, I got back and I was like, Oh, this is just a honeymoon glow from a trip but there was this lingering sense of like, No, that was actually really, really meaningful, and my therapist brain was like, that was more impactful than any therapy session I'd ever done any book I'd ever read. Any intervention I'd ever applied to myself. Like that was the coolest thing that has ever transformed my life, and how is that like, why am I not recommending travel to my clients? What was part of it was the core ingredients.

So I got -- that's how I think about things like, what was the piece that was actually the causative factor, and I didn't have the word intentional, the phrase intentional discomfort at that point, but that's what it came to, over the next probably five, six months. I was like, Okay, I think it was -- Every moment on the trip where I was wildly uncomfortable, was when I had the best experience and the thing that stuck with me, and so, I started doing things that were wildly uncomfortable, and I got back and things that were even just baby steps. Like, Groupon is a great way to do this, especially when we get out of COVID. But there's still great opportunities now. But I signed up for a glassblowing class, I have no interest necessarily, in that it's new, which is a big piece of resiliency field trips is doing something novel because our brains are like sponges when we're doing something new, and so went and like, did glassblowing out of thanksgiving point, and then, went skiing again for the first time, and I think 13 years, and that's still a resiliency filter for me. Every single time I go skiing, I've got one coming up on Thanksgiving going skiing again, and I'm wildly anxious about it still.

So I just found opportunities to be in discomfort over and over again, and again, as a therapist, I was like floating up there watching myself go through this and feeling the anxiety come up feeling the apprehension, the morning of like excuses of how I could get out of it, and doing it anyway, and then noticing how I felt afterward, and what I did afterwards, like how long would that afterglow last? And it was eventually just really straightforward. From what I could see of like, okay, we really need to be on that edge as often as possible, and when we do that, there's this phrase in therapy land when we do the research called spontaneous self-care, or spontaneous self-growth rate. It's where we tap into all of our own answers, which as a therapist unlocked everything right.

I'm a big fan of Carl Rogers, he was like kind of the father of a lot of ideas in therapy, and he had always emphasized. It's about the client taking the journey on their own, and you're not there to provide any answers. But there's such a pole to try to provide answers, whether it's to our children, to our spouses, to our friends or clients to say, Oh, this is what you should do, and yet, no matter how perfect the advice, even if you had a time machine, you knew exactly what they should do. If it comes from someone else other than ourselves, it's not as meaningful, it doesn't change our lives, we have to go make the mistakes. It's some weird human condition we have, where we have to stumble through and make the wrong choices and experience that and take the journey to wherever we're going to end up, and that's the beauty of life, and so, really coming to see that I was making all of the best decisions for myself when I was at that edge. Or shortly thereafter, I started applying it in therapy to just encourage clients to go out into discomfort and to help facilitate that we do a lot of group resiliency field trips where people can kind of baby step in with other people, and then watch what happens, and it's the coolest, most magical thing to see people make these huge leaps in their lives, seemingly small choices, often but enormous trajectory shifts, simply because they reconnected with their authentic, curious, compassionate, brave self.

Speaker 01 44:30

Yeah. It resonates so much with this idea of the swell. I mean, I you mentioned that actually, I think in your response on the forum is like -- I think we're strong believers in this idea that this idea of journey, specifically and change having to ultimately start within yourself, and then it kind of swells outwards, which is really interesting, and I love that you mentioned that but I'm interested to know I guess so. Once you once you had this experience and you then took it to the real world and helped other people experience this, I don't know. There's a certain; like the openness to experience the openness to failure, that openness. Do you feel like maybe before this happened? And after this happened? Do you feel maybe more creative?

Speaker 02 45:23

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 01 45:25

I don't know I'm interested in

Speaker 02 45:26

Yeah, creativity is scary. In order to create something original, you have to go outside of your ego. Because the ego was doesn't want to do anything original. That's like new and it could fail. It could be really bad. A lot of times it is. Creativity is born out of a lot of bad ideas, and when I say bad ideas, it's just like, ideas. It's like, again, detaching failure and bad and all these other things from like, I might die. These are all good things. Having a lot of ideas that don't work, is the process of finding your way to ideas that do and that change lives even, and so creativity I think really sits on a bedrock of doing uncomfortable things and being okay with feeling afraid, and an almost enjoying it. A lot of people who are adrenaline junkies can really speak to this.

They feel most alive when fear is going through their system. There's a whole new association with it. It's feeling this purpose and connection and spark, rather than feeling debilitated and paralyzed, and it's really all about practice and getting there so that you redefine what that experience. Instead, when the adrenaline comes into my system now, I'm like, Oh, this is awesome. I want to tap into this, what's going on inside of me? What can I channel this into what ideas are coming to me? Because certainly, have my normal peaceful days where I go through a routine. I don't remember those days; they don't stand out. There's nothing incredible happening in the shower. It's just shampooing. But the days where I'm scared about something, whether it's doing a TV interview, or a trip is I'm leaving next the next day, or I'm going on a date which always gives me anxiety, and suddenly, there's all this creativity spurring and all of that. There's a huge ripple effect into creativity and into vulnerability in these amazing ways that you do remember?

Speaker 03 47:28

Yeah, we've been reading. So you probably have another question. Reading. Change by design again, and in it by Tim Brown, and in there, it talks about the importance of divergent thinking and convergent thinking, and those two, you're really describing everyone can be creative. But we often just stick with what we know. We do stuff, we plan the stuff, but actually spending a little bit more time on the on the creative -- It opens up the world to us, and I want to just back track a little bit to yourself, as well as the people you work with and support and help. Any other triggers that you do to actually help that change happen? Because we can just get stuck in the day to day stuff? What practical triggers do you use in your life to make sure that the time between your resilience experiments are not too long?

Speaker 02 48:30

Yeah. Well, I think coming full circle to -- you'd mentioned yoga earlier, in the course of figuring out intentional discomfort as this big piece of it. I mean, clearly, there were some other pieces right to resilience, you don't want to just be an intentional discomfort all the time. That's just masochistic. So, a big piece of like, that should be fun, but it's not every single day, and what were the other pieces and in the course of exploring and just saying yes to everything, which was my path forward, like, okay, I just say yes to everything, try everything because I am desperate to find my way through this trauma, and the coolest thing I am not the type of person that would -- in my prior life because I really do feel like there's a split between pre trauma and post trauma, and in that prior life, synchronicity, those types of serendipity, they weren't things that I was like, ah, whoa.

But post trauma, like listening in to intuition and really noticing the body's response to everything convinced me that there is like this energetic force that we haven't defined necessarily. Physics has started to actually really start to look at this, but there are signs and their responses in your body that you can cue into to be like, Okay, this is something I need to say yes to, and so that first year after Puerto Rico, I just said Yes, whatever the body said, Yes, and one of those things was Amanda Jones, who is on Fox 13. In the middle of the day on a show, she came out and did an interview with me at one of the group resiliency field trips that we held, and it turned out, she's a meditation teacher, and so I got one of her emails a few months later, it was like, hey, come try a meditation session. And, again, pre trauma and doesn't meditate, that's like, Nope, I don't want to sit still, I got a million things to do, I've got to like, stay focused on this treadmill that I'm on. Sitting still was not in my wheelhouse at all, and so I said, Yes, took the meditation coaching session, changed my life forever, and being learning how to be still and listen deeply, I think is a big key to this, and so finding mindfulness rituals is a baby step way in to start to listen to the body and start to hear intuition so that you can act on it.

So for me, like my favorite one, I wake up every morning, I collect mugs, from the places I go, like the really memorable resiliency field trips so that every morning I can pick one based on the day, and pour in my hot coffee, and I'm a definite coffee addict. But there's also just this ritual around the heat and the start of the day, and I'm not a morning person.

So it's important, and I sit in the same spot and gaze out my window, and if I'm traveling, I'll find a window or a porch to be kind of in nature, and sit for just a few minutes, taking the aroma, the sensation, mindfulness is so much easier when we tap into sensation, because it brings you into your body, right, I'm suddenly like in my hands and the warmth and that I'm into my breath and, and then the taste and that sensation of the warm liquid coming down, and that grounding for even just a few minutes every morning, sets a tone for the day where I can be more in my body more aware and have just that breath of space, which is really how I define resilience is that space between what's happening outside of me, and how I choose to respond, and if I don't start the morning that way, or if things just really go off the rails, there's no space. I'm knee jerk reaction, fear based, threat oriented, the amygdala is totally in charge, and that is not my authentic self. That's the impatient, scary me who nobody should have to be around, and I always feel like remorseful about and so I want to be out of that space as often as possible, um, and maintain that little breath.

So that whatever comes up, I can choose to be in flow with it to let it be part of my journey. So you have that growth oriented mindset. But it takes that daily maintenance, and it takes the little mindfulness ritual, the weekly yoga class, the hike that I go on every week, like religion, because that's church, for me, it was my spiritual connection is being out in nature, and if I don't do those things, and I still make that mistake, it's a busy week, I can do it in a couple days, I'll put that off till later, things go wrong, and I go into the scary place and it doesn't. Life isn't bright and shiny and full of opportunities in that place, and so it really is key to have some of those little rituals from whatever it is walking the dog as a favorite along with clients that have dogs, whatever it is.

Speaker 03 53:20

That's great. I know, one of my brother's podcasts, he interviewed someone and all about kind of the happy. I think they call it the happy book or something. But write down all the things that just make you happy, and that's not necessarily things that make you uncomfortable, though, that's sounds absolutely critical, and it may become the things you love. But make sure that every day you're doing some of those things, and you've just described them as rituals, triggers. These things are super, super important. Ye

Speaker 01 53:52

I had this. Can I share a story? So literally, because I don't know what to make it this. This was really strange for me. So I just recently started meditating. I got into it. And, and basically, I repeat this mantra in my head, really focused on my breathing, I set the timer for about 20 minutes, and as I'm going through this meditation, I'm recounting for some reason these moments of deja vu are popping into my head, and so I'm like, Okay, I'm aware that that's there. I'll push it away, but it's there, and it happened like two or three times throughout this 20-minute time span, and then all of a sudden. -- So I see them as images, and then all of a sudden, I see an image of a clock ticking down. I see this clock ticking down, hits to zero, and then my phone. The alarm goes off at that moment. I don't know what to make of that. I mean, what does that mean? I don't know anyway, is it just that I was so present in the moment, mindful of I guess how long without really being conscious of that? I don't know. [crosstalk 54:56] point of the podcast, but I was like...

Speaker 03 54:59

[crosstalk] were certainly president. You were really thinking about?

Speaker 01 55:04

It was strange. But anyway, so back on track.

Speaker 02 55:09

I do think like, when you do start meditating, you connect into the possibilities that are inside of us, and we have this limited scope of like, I need to rely on an alarm clock, I need to rely on a timer, I need to have all these things that helped me do this, when in reality, we have such significant capacity that we have barely scratched the surface on, and when we do start to meditate and be present, be mindful, it is really magical, what comes up the and the awareness that starts to percolate into the rest of your life.

Speaker 03 55:45

So it's important to have that time I think it -- I mean, a lot of kids and unwell people at work and corporate organizations are being encouraged all the time to have that mindfulness, but just put the distractions away. They call it social fasts or real actual food fast. I know that made a big difference to me last year, just get rid of all the things that are distracting, and fast on a regular basis, and have time in the morning when no one is up, and just think, blank piece of paper, what's coming to my mind, and then ciphering through which ones may be the right things to do, or the things that excite you, or the things that might stretch you, and then go and do them. It's pretty amazing. I was going to ask you earlier --each one of his other things -- When talking about the things you wish you could go and do that are out of your comfort zone. What comes to your mind, I'm going to share one and it's just the oddest thing? From time to time, I will write down things and maybe a list of 20, 30, 40 things, and I need to go back and visit those things actually, and go well, which ones haven't even started to do yet. But one of them was just the weirdest thing where we live, there's a house near Rock Canyon Park, and there's a big house, and it puts huge lettering. Just quote that changes every month.

Speaker 02 57:10


Speaker 03 57:12

And I just want to know who that is, like, I'm going to knock on that door one day, and actually, it was the day that was pretty difficult. I think it will knock on that door. I've been curious enough. Who are they? Why did they do it? When did it start? I haven't knocked on the door yet. But it's a small thing, doesn't cost money. It's not travel. But it could take me 10 minutes a little bit out of my comfort zone knocking on the door. But fine. How about it? That's the type of thing that came to mind when you were talking. But it could be anything, couldn't it? It's actually open possibilities is endless. Do you have anything, Josh?

Speaker 01 57:44

Well, if you need somebody to go with you to knock on that. [laughter] [crosstalk] Okay.

Speaker 02 57:50

I want to come to you.

Speaker 01 57:54

I think so. It definitely changed the way that I look at these moments after I heard you talk. Absolutely, it was amazing, and what's interesting, though, is -- I didn't have words for it at the time, I wrote a blog after we did TEDx last year. I didn't have a word for it through the experience. But I know, I'm an introvert, and I have a really hard time, putting myself out there, this guy has had to tell me multiple times to speak more. But it's been a huge thing for me, and then all of a sudden, that year, I was like, I want to do X, which was basically -- I wanted to build my personal brand, and that required me to do certain things, and a big part of that was, I'm going to start -- I'll try to public speak And...

Speaker 03 58:43

I was like, Whoa,

Speaker 01 58:47

But I was just like, I'm going to go do this thing; that by far is the most terrifying thing I've ever done, and it was devastating for me, because you remember the process, we went through rounds of drafts, and then there was the day when we had to get up on stage, and we all heard, it was the first part and the last part of everybody's talk, and I was so terrified that whole time, and I got up there, and I was just like, I can't remember anything. I can't remember what I'm supposed to say. I feel like I'm making a fool of myself right now. And...

Speaker 02 59:27

And you might die. [laughter]

Speaker 01 59:31

Exactly, and I'll say this, I think it was hearing your talk in addition to [inaudible 59:40]. She helped me through that a lot as well. But hearing your talk, I think is what pushed me over that hump and helped me associate that moment of like, yeah, this is really hard and it was that day I was like, I'm just going to go, I really don't think this is right for me. I was like, I don't know it was so bad, but the idea of resiliency field trips and just putting yourself in intentional discomfort. I was like, there's purpose in what I'm feeling right now, and I know if I can get through this growth I'll feel out of that is -- I know, I won't feel that way if I leave. So I'm going to stick through it, and I mean, that's the closest thing I can relate to, because it was so tied together hearing you talk and then that experience, I was like, you put words to what I was going through in the most impactful way in that moment.

Speaker 03 1:00:33

I think it was the words that that made a difference to me as well just put in language to it, and it's in the dictionary, it's already their resiliency, but put it into the story you had that meant something to you and to your truth, makes a difference. Even if someone else has already talked about it another point, we should just do what we feel right, in our mind, our bodies, our spirits. But since you took the talk like that -- I mean, I enjoy lots of talks that day. That's the one that stuck with me the word resilience, field trips, and actually I pictured it slightly differently.

So in my mind, I pictured it as a -- I wonder what -- if you could see your resiliency. What would it look like? And I thought to myself, it's going to sound like I'm begging myself up. But I felt like my resiliency was like a rope, like a tug of war rope pretty decent. That's how I feel. But other people I've known over my lifetime, close to me or you know, friends have maybe had resiliency that's like a cobweb, and an even thinner than that, but that's how I kind of pictured it. In fact, since you talked about it, and the importance of not just doing it, but I am pretty fascinated about how you help anyone, you can't force them to do it. You were saying you can't, if someone has to choose, they have to be aware enough of it, and then choose to go and I’m going to do something about it, and what triggered something you just said, Josh, is a maybe different subject for another day. But the importance of -- you didn't really tell me about that talk. You kept it to yourself, and actually, sometimes people say, oh, sharing your goals are really important. I actually feel the opposite. Sometimes we just have to do it secretly, just in our own little space as a motivation to doing things that are scary.

Speaker 02 1:02:12

Yeah, I would agree. I mean, when I went on the trip to Puerto Rico, I didn't tell anybody. I texted my mom the day before. I was like, just so somebody knows if I don't come back, this is what's happening. But I was like, there is this -- I think for a lot of us, I need to do it in private at first. When I applied for TEDx, I didn't tell anyone, because then I'd have to tell them if I didn't get it, and then once I did get it, I was like, oh, if I tell people they'll come, and I don't want the demo on the audience, and it was interesting. In the end, I invited and actually bought seats on like, the front row for, I think 12 of my family members, and, and close friends and things like that, and I had clients buy a bunch of tickets, and they were in the audience, and I told one of my closer friends about this, who speaks regularly, is a very well-known author goes around the world speaking, and he's like, wow, this is like your first really big thing. He's like, I cannot believe you invited anyone? Because that was like, so not something he would do, he is like, No, I don't want anyone in the audience that really matters to me, that would just make me so nervous, and I was like, Whoa, yeah, that is scary. I hadn't thought about that. But they're already coming. But there is right this, I think lean in if you want to do it in private at first, like just do it, however you need to do it.

So you put yourself in that way and to speak to like, you can't force this on anyone. All we can do is plant seeds of inspiration and create conditions for change, and that's where in therapy, I love doing therapy. Now, even though you know, going back to the beginning of my story, 14 years ago, I hated it, and it's realizing that the conditions for change are quite simple, and all of the research and therapy supports this over decades and decades. It doesn't matter what acronym I'm using, or what method or where we're at. Or, if I have a lot of experience or a little bit of experience. It doesn't matter where I did my schooling. The conditions for change are unconditional positive regard, warm, empathic, listening, like creating space for people to, to rise to their potential to be seen and heard.

We can do that for our kids. We can do it for our spouses, we can do it for friends, we can do it for strangers. It's amazing. I think one of the most powerful skills we have to create change, and I love that you guys think about this as far as agency or organizational change. It's really about creating that space for resilience and every one of the people we encounter and then you just sit back and watch, and the coolest thing is they often give you credit. They're like, my clients would be like, oh my gosh, I cannot believe how much you've changed my life, and I'm like, I just sat here, and listen, you did all of the work like that was all you; you came up with the answers, you took that crazy journey that went so wrong, but was so perfect for you. Then I could have never prescribed that. I have no idea what your answers are, and it's the same as when I'm speaking to a best friend, the inclination, the social training is to be like, Oh, well, this is what I would do. But instead, when you hold back and just listen deeply, and ask those open ended questions, people come up with the most incredible solutions, and they take the journey and you grow closer, you bond, you go on journeys together, and that's where the change happens.

So some people might take a long time before they're ready for a resiliency field trip, life is still going to give them ones they're not asking for, and that's where we experienced that pain, that rub of like, I want to feel better. That's why people check into therapy. It's like, something's missing. Life is so hard. I don't want life to be so hard, and the fact is that life is always giving us adversity. It's how we relate to it, and so one of the first things I experienced after I got back from Puerto Rico was I got a flat tire, and I had been married for eight years, and so I had never changed a flat tire.

And I was at a meeting with some other girlfriends, but colleagues, I worked with all women, and I'm like, texting wildly. Every man I know, in my phonebook, I'm like, could you come help me change a flat tire, and nobody's available. So by the end of the meeting, and our intern, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this, I could do this, and it's like, this small little voice that got louder and louder and louder, and I told them at the end of the meeting, I was going to go change my flat tire in the rain, and they're like, No, no. All this projected fear and anxiety, and one of them was like, No, I'm going to call triple A, just in case. So I have triple A on the way.

So now I've got a countdown. I've got to change the start before triple A here, because I've got this seed of intuition to do this, and that is the beautiful thing about going on intentional resiliency field trips is that then you can turn everyday adversity into one, just by changing your mindset. It's that breath of like, oh, here's my reaction. But now I can say, what could I get out of this, and I got another flat tire, I want to say three months later, because the universe just knows I need lessons on repeat, and I was in peach jeggings and slippers. It's really cold out, I'm on the way to take the kids to school, they're going to be late, and I'm just so frustrated they have another flat tire. But it took only maybe 10 seconds this time instead of an hour to be like, Oh, no wait, this is another opportunity, and so this time, I had my daughter time me, and I went out and I was like, I'm going to do this quick as NASCAR level, and I have it somewhere in my blog, but it was, I think, 13 minutes or something, and I didn't get even a smudge on my peach jeggings while I held that tire into the back of a car, and even though the tire costs a few 100 bucks, and that was part of -- it didn't even paled in comparison to the pride and excitement and aliveness that came from that. So I was like, bring it on. Bring on the flat tires.

Speaker 01 1:08:17

Yeah, that's a great story. It's interesting, I guess. We're hitting time. But I do want people to know -- So currently, what do you do? How can people reach out to you, but also, I want to know, what's in your future? I heard you mentioned reading a book.

Speaker 02 1:08:40


Speaker 01 1:08:41

And yeah, [crosstalk]

Speaker 02 1:08:44

I'm going to admit, I'm super spoiled right now, and it is just a disclaimer to everyone that's going to hear this and be like, Oh, I just don't have that much money, that much time, that much resources, it is truly a choice, and I get that there is a long journey ahead for some people that are much less fortunate than I am. But I really just encourage you to make the choices ahead that you can, so that you can get to the point of having the freedom to do these things. But I do think a lot of people who have the ability don't think they do, and this was me, this is from personal experience. When I looked at travel or starting a new career or writing a book or whatever, I always had reasons why I couldn't right now, like I can't right now, because of this, I can't right now because I'm not ready. I can't right now because I need to finish my degree or whatever, and a lot of times we can throw off those limitations. So that's not to discount the very real adversity and difficulties that many people are facing. But a lot of us do have more freedom than we think. So I am writing the book, and I don't care if it gets published, which is the coolest, most freeing thing in the world. I'm just pouring out what comes and letting it be. For those people that are in the writing world, though it's NaNoWriMo. right now.

November every year is National Novel Writing Month, and while I'm not writing fiction, I'm still piggybacking on that fun challenge of writing 50,000 words in a single month. So that's been my focus for November, and will be, I'm sure for months to come as I kind of play with that and see what comes of it, and hopefully, that's in my future, I do really, really love writing, and I'm very motivated by macro level impact.

So the TEDx talk for me was the ultimate Apex moment in my career, so far of being able to impact so many people and hear from strangers, Ah! man that lights me up to get emails or calls from strangers that are like, Oh, I have this idea. I wanted to talk to you about it. That's so cool. So that's my hope is to shift even more into that, and then right now, I'm doing a lot of organizational and corporate virtual workshops, and speaking, which has been really cool, because resilience is really the theme right now, as we all sit in the midst of this pandemic, of how do we move forward? How do we get creative? How do we adapt? Because there will be this new normal afterwards, and even I have for months during this was like, No, we're going to go back. This will go away, and we're going to go back to how things were. But there's this huge opportunity now to find the new normal and to allow us to innovate us as a culture, how do we connect together? How do we relate? How do we respond to crisis, and we can do that in our organizations and our families, for ourselves in the midst of all of this, and so certainly, I am available? My private practice with therapy and coaching. yoga classes, weekly Yoga is based on the hero's journey when I teach it, so it's kind of this therapeutic like cycle of moving through every aspect of that in a single hour, so that we can embody it in the moment, and then I have workshops that come up---

Right now kind of locked down, I don't have anything on the schedule, just because we are trying to get a hold on this whole pandemic. So those will be coming back in 2021, hopefully, and I do just invite people to reach out with ideas or to share a win or to share a field trip, because sometimes you're not ready to share it with friends or family. But having somebody for a little bit of accountability and cheerleading changes everything, and that could just be a simple email to this current stranger, but soon to be friend in Salt Lake City. Because that's how we all grow together. That lights me up and spurs me on and inspires me, and personally, I am headed to Panama at the end of December, I'm super excited. I'm going to take all the precautions do all the testing, and yet still go. You know, it's been a personal decision at every step of this, and I really honor those that are quarantining and protecting others, and I support that, and I'm trying to do that as much as I can at home. But I also am, I always go on an annual trip at the end of December to do planning and to be reflective and reconnect with myself and my own resilience and to honor that initial tradition of Puerto Rico, and Panama is open. So I'm headed to see the canal and the monkeys and maybe the volcano, we'll see. And, and then 2021 feels like I have a wide open slate. I have a challenge and possibility as is every year. Yeah.

Speaker 03 1:13:40

What is the heart of what you're trying to learn about? What are you trying to do [crosstalk 01:13:46] Yeah? Oh,

Speaker 02 1:13:49

What a beautiful question. I love how you worded that, because that is what I came to -- I couldn't write the book and tell it became about curiosity within myself, rather than trying to share something with somebody, and the TEDx talk was very much the same way. I had applied before. I had like, had different ideas of talks I could give, and it didn't click and tell it was more about my story and being curious, and being vulnerable about sharing it right getting up on the stage and being like, Yeah, I was arrested, and you can totally ask me about it, you know, and, and that was a really cool ripple effect in and of itself. I now know so many people's arrest stories, which if you have one, please stare because it's all about growth, and I don't regret mine in the least. But in the writing, it is very much a memoir style, about exploring my experiences, in particular in nature and on travel experiences, and the alignment to personal growth and awareness and insight that has transformed my life.

So substantially more than anything else I've tried, right? It's about being present in the moments in uncomfortable situations, whether it's wandering through the woods alone, or being out in the desert, which is my favorite place to escape to, or being out on some crazy Panama adventure, and so it really is just about finding the layers underneath and putting work so it was and learning through that process. [crosstalk 01:15:22] other people can find their own way Yes, in a deeper way [01:15:29 -01:15:51 crosstalk]

Speaker 02 1:15:55

I don't know was it? So my email is Em. E-M right short for Emily at Capito is c-a-p-i-t-o. It's also my website. I'm honest socialists, and not really more than welcome to reach out to me there. [crosstalk 01:16:51- 01:17:27] the hardest thing I'd ever done, and really could not If I had known how scary it would be, I would never have applied. So put yourself into that just first step and let it take you from there. If you want to be a public speaker, apply for something as a speaker and you'll find your way there. Through the discomfort if you want to travel book the ticket, you'll find your way through.

Speaker 03 1:18:26

Let's say this is true for anyone. I mean, any age, it could be a child, it could be a student, could be a similar to starting a business or it could be someone much older, just do something different. If you feel that inkling or intrigue or maybe feelings that have anxiety or whatever it might be. You can choose this path; I think it's going to be great. I think this is not for the guests. But my daughter, actually. I think she'd love just listen to this because she's figured out some of this. While she's still at BYU. She just chosen to go on it, she just trips all the time chooses them, because they're going to be difficult. When she chose to go to a different apartment without her friends that she's been with for three years, and why did you do that? I just want to meet new people. I want to stretch myself in life. But it really can come before the big trauma or the biggest challenge. You could actually -- if you identify that's good for you really early on, then start doing it now.

Speaker 02 1:19:38

I think kids know this. They're just so in touch with intuition. Because there's less fear. There's less of that voice saying, Oh, stop, you might die, and so we train that out of them. Unfortunately, we're like, oh, that art piece isn't quite good enough or you didn't win the soccer competition or any of these things, and I hear it coming out of my own childhood training will come Out of my own mouth with my kids of like, Oh, do you really want to do that? That's a little risky, and then I have to backtrack and be like, no do it. Follow that intuition. My daughter is writing a novel, and oh, man, it scares the crap out of me that she might not get it published, it might fail. She might feel like a failure. She might never finish it, what will that do to her? And those are all my fears. Me projecting all of that fear onto this beautiful, totally wide open child that doesn't have those fears in place. She's just writing because she feels called to write, and yeah, we can really tap into that after that social programming to hold back, go into the difficult places and find that and rock climbing has been huge for me and my kids, and those things we create on a regular basis ritual. I try to go rock climbing with my kids every other week because it helps us stay in tune with that piece.

Speaker 03 1:20:53

It's wonderful.

Speaker 01 1:20:54

Yeah, we'll cut it. That was great. Thanks for hanging out with us. We hope you enjoyed today's episode of the Swell podcast. Be sure to like and subscribe to the podcast, sign up to our newsletter and get in on the conversation through all major socials @theswellpod. We'll see you next time.

Em Capito is a psychotherapist specializing in tangible resilience strategies, highlighted in her recent TEDx talk. Em partners behind the scenes with visionaries, entrepreneurs and business leaders to foster purpose-driven impact. Em holds master’s degrees in social work and business administration. She is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker, a yoga teacher, and a meditation teacher with a private practice in Salt Lake City and Park City, Utah.